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RC Helicopter

  • The FrSky module has a speaker in it that beeps a distinctive pattern when you're getting to the edge of your range so there's little chance of you losing control. The stock antenna consistently gets me 1.5km and i've been told that that's about average for a FrSky.
  • ^ That's a great feature! Too bad it's on backorder. Is there a way to get the telemetry on it to work without getting the separate LCD screen for it?
  • No idea. I only use the RSSI function for the range warnings. Voltage readings i get on the OSD.
  • @hajile
    anu pala gamit nio trasmitter module tsaka vrx vtx?
  • Just the usual 5.8Ghz gear

    http://www.foxtechfpv.com/foxtech-58g-200mw-txrx-with-integrated-regulator-board-and-mi-p-178.html

    It's the same as this one, they're pretty common apparently.

    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15295__Boscam_5_8Ghz_200mw_FPV_Wireless_AV_Tx_Rx_Set.html
  • Baket marami gumagamit ng 5.8ghz kahit na madaling mablock ung signal
    mahal ba ung 1.2 ghz compared sa 5.8 vtx vrx?

    anu pala ung module ng 9xr nio?
  • It's easier to setup and less likely to have interference. I can't fly my 1.3ghz because it's resonating with the 2.4ghz radio. I can usually fly 1.5km with the frsky, but when I put on the 1.3ghz box, I get range warnings at 100 meters.
  • anu ung 1.3 vtx and vrx nio?
    baket hindi kayo gumamit ng 433mhz openlrs 1w <click here for link> anu ba advantage ng frsky vs 433mhz openlrs?
    and why use 2.4 pagkakaalam ko frequency ng wifi yan

    curious lang po :D

    -- edited by roseneil on Apr 19 2014, 02:04 AM
  • Ako, initially, I was also eyeing the 433 open LRS ng OrangeX (tunog open source kasi hehehe). Upon reading up on it, parang kumplikado gamitin. Hindi raw plug and play. Sabi para raw masetup at magamit yung Open LRS features kailangan daw ng programming skills saka experience with Arduino. Wala ako pareho nun.

    Now, I'm interested in the FrSky 2.4ghz combo. Medyo PnP (set lang ng channel) saka may ACCST technology para maging interference proof. May pre-integrated telemetry pa (if you have the equipment for it).

    Wala pa atang stock so I have time to decide.

    Sir Hajile can hopefully provide us with more details and help me decide.
  • May pre written codes ako na nakita at pede rin daw lagyan ng telemetry ung 433 openlrs
    hindi ako makapagbigay ng info since wala pa kong binibili baka matagalan pa ko kasi pinangbili ko muna pisonet pera ko :D

    kamusta pala ung pinaship nio alexraz?
  • I actually have a 433 and currently testing it so i can finally use the 1.3 video. It's an OrangeLRS i got third hand from someone that couldn't get it to work. The original owner apparently couldn't get it very far, same with the second owner. However, i read consistently that stock OrangeLRS antennas as just as bad as not having antennas at all. So i looked up 433 antennas and made a dipole. When i tried it out by going around the block, the frsky went into failsafe after two houses, the OrangeLRS can still go with no warning beeps at eight houses. Really good. Now i'm just trying to figure out how to mount the huge antenna on the wing of the bixler. It's a foot long and it has to stay vertical!

    When i finally get the 433 in the air and get it to reach the limit of the 5.8Ghz on helical, then i'll mount the 1.3vTX

    Advanages? FrSky is plug and play. On openlrs, you need to fabricate and mount your own antenna for best results.

    The 2.4Ghz thing is a legal issue, it requires no license or fees to operate (Bluetooth, wifi, cordless phones, etc.) so manufacturers just went ahead and used it. To keep it from ending up getting shot down when someone makes a call on their bluetooth headset, they invented frequency hopping. Wifi's generally stay on one frequency (It's the channel setting on the routers setup screen). Even if a packet the radio sent got chewed up by a nearby router, it wouldn't matter since it randomly sends the succeedig packets in a dozen other frequencies.

    @alexraz
    Worse, the USB programmer listed under the OrangeLRS product page is actually meant for OrangeRX. I only found that out after the order arrived and realized i'll have to make my own programmer. Anybody interested in an OrangRX USB programmer? Never used.

    Fortunately, the stock settings seem to work fine. Newer firmware apparently improves the performance even further, but for now, i just want to get this on my bixler.

    @roseneil
    yes, the OrangeLRS receiver also has the ability to transmit. In fact, some guy actually uploaded a firmware that turned his OrangeLRS receiver into a transmitter and put that in his 9X radio.
  • ^
    1watt version ba yan gamit nio?
    mukang ok tong antenna na to para sa transmitter 433 rmilec
    External Image


    sa rx cloverleaf? laki siguro nun xD. Pede naman siguro stock antenna sa rx
  • I might not have the time nor patience to deal with programming the modules when I get them. I'd rather use the time to learn to get the quad off the ground and land it without breaking anything. Plus the additional cost and time of buying or making a programmer (ang ninipis pa naman ng mga wire para sa usb, malabuhok). Since I'm still waiting for my shipment, di ko pa na aaral how the stuff works (Tx, FC, etc). I wouldn't want to be messing around with firmware on my first go (kaya afroESC inorder ko).

    @Hajile

    However, your 433 test results intrigue me. Malupit pala talaga penetration (I read somewhere that it actually reflects and diffracts around obstacles and slits rather than go through). On both of your tests, were you flying low alt or over the houses? Like I mentioned before, I'm worried about losing signal. I was planning of flying the thing from our house to my in-law's in the same village hehehe.

    Why would you need to put a foot long antenna on the Rx of your plane? Setback ba yun ng 433mhz or para ma match yung range na binibigay nung 5.8ghz vTx/vRx mo?

    When you said "stock settings seem to work fine" did you mean that you didn't have to flash the Rx/Tx to get it to work? Antenna lang talaga? I wouldn't want to end up like the first 2 owners of that unit.

    @Roseneil

    Pang dagdag lang sa sinabi ni Hajile... Legal issue nga ito. In most countries kailangan mo ng lisensya para gumamit ng continuously transmitting device sa 433mhz frequency. Kasama Pinas dun sabi nung kaibigan kong amateur radio enthusiast (lisensyado)... sabi rin nya na wala namang lisensya yung mga security guard so pinapakita lang na walang silbe yung batas.

    -- edited by alexraz on Apr 19 2014, 07:47 PM
  • Why would you need to put a foot long antenna on the Rx of your plane?

    correct me if im wrong :)
    Ganun talaga the lower the frequency mas malaki ung antenna
    kala ko dati kaya 5.8 ghz gamit madalas dahil maliit ang antenna
  • @Hajile

    Will the common dipole antennas for UHF work with transmitting and receiving? Like the Yagi, Baron (bwahaha), saka mga balanced half-wave dipole na nabibili sa Raon?


    @Roseneil

    For some reason, Malaysia post ang ginamit ng HK sa pag send nung order. Umalis ng Kuala Lumpur nung 4/16.
  • @roseneil
    I'm using the 100mw module.

    That's supposedly a good antenna, but kinda expensive tho. Making my own antenna seemed to work well enough.

    @alexraz
    It's a ground test. I live at the end of our block. I left the transmitter on the terrace, which means it's got concrete walls on three sides, and walked around the block.Each house i pass is a complete set of concrete walls between me and the receiver.

    Radio waves can actually be physically measured. One guy actually put something together in his kitchen, ran it through a microwave, and measured the length of the patterns left on the plate with a ruler. The size of the antenna has to match the length of a frequencies wavelength in order to work properly. A 433mhz half wave is Six and a half inches, the ground antenna for best results, is supposed to mirror the primary antenna so that's another six and a half inches.

    External Image


    The stock antennas look not much longer than 2.4Ghz antennas, because it's a six inch antenna that's coiled into a spring to pack it in there, looks almost like a helical but it's not. Probably one of the worst kind of antennas out there.

    Yeah, i don't have the flashing tools, and the guy i bought it from didn't seem to have the tools either (he would have sold those to me as well since it'll be useless on anything else). All i changed was the antenna and it worked.

    Also yes, you can use the same antennas as on your aerials. The Yagi is actually a common antenna people use for extremely long range.Tho i'm not really sure how well those are tuned to 433.

    -- edited by Hajile on Apr 21 2014, 06:55 PM
  • Pano yan pag nagbank ung plane?
    Kng d ako nagkamali parehas vertical polarization ng antenna nio

    Omnidirectional ba yang antenna na ganyan
  • You generally try to keep the plane level when you're flying FPV anyway, especially when you're wearing goggles. Banking turns are usually large with minimal roll. Real pilots don't bank their planes like fighter jets.
  • Your antennas look almost exactly like the antenna I got for the garage TV, though that thing measures around 1.5m end to end. Your design doesn't use a choc block? I found a Yagi antenna calculator and for 433mhz the longest component, (radiator/driven element) would have to measure 35.5cm (14") . The Yagi would be feasible for the transmitter. Looks like fun to build even if I'll be using 2.4Ghz (the dimensions would be a quarter than that of the 433).

    I can see why you're more interested in using the 433 on a plane. You can stretch the range of your flights which was previously dictated by the (v)Tx/(v)Rx range (as opposed to battery life), tama ba? The quad/tri is more sensitive to weight changes and the antenna would add a significant amount, reducing flight time as well as range, defeating the purpose of having a long range Tx/Rx setup. Am I thinking in the right direction?

    If I can find a 433 antenna design and materials for the Rx that's light (60grms or less) and won't exceed 48cm in width, I might give the OrangeRx a go.

    Question: setting the ethics of flying through and over populated/multiple obstacle areas aside, will the reliability and range of using 433mhz outweigh (no pun intended) the additional weight of non-stock antennas on quads? I'm comparing it to the use of 2.4ghz where you can use the stock (wire) antennas and still get good range but is susceptible to obstacle interference.

    BTW, I also found IBCrazy's 433mhz antenna for planes:

    External Image



    I really appreciate the time and effort you give in answering our questions. Very helpful and informative. Thanks, dude!

    -- edited by alexraz on Apr 22 2014, 07:29 AM
  • @alexraz
    You can stretch the range of your flights which was previously dictated by the (v)Tx/(v)Rx range (as opposed to battery life), tama ba?

    Maganda kasi penetration ng 433mhz kesa sa 2.4ghz

    defeating the purpose of having a long range Tx/Rx setup. Am I thinking in the right direction?

    ganyan din ako ng una puro long range ako interested pero kung multirotor lang gagamitin mo hindi siya applicable pang long range. mga 2km balikan malayo na un para sa multirotor. kung long range habol mo glider plane nalang gamitin mo kamuka nung bixler ni sir hajile o kaya ung multiplex easy star.

    eto talaga long range na tx tapos samahan mo ng yagi or pepperbox antenna
    External Image


    sa video tx naman wala pa kong idea kung anu mga pang long range na vtx

    @Hajile
    eto ba ung circular polarized version ng antenna nio?
    External Image

    thanks sa pic alexraz

    may rule ba tayo sa pag pares ng antenna?
    maliban sa same frequency
    mag work ba ung stock rx antenna ng openlrs tapos rmilec antenna sa tx?


    another question lang
    Ung RX ba ang napoprogram hindi ung TX?

    -- edited by roseneil on Apr 22 2014, 11:18 AM

    -- edited by roseneil on Apr 22 2014, 11:22 AM
  • Actually, di ako interested sa long range (>500M). Mamaya mag fail pa yun at 1Km, good luck sa pag hanap! Hehehe.

    Ang habol ko link reliability saka flight time. Malaki impact ng timbang sa batt life/flight time.

    Eto yung mga premise ko:

    -Sa 433mhz, kahit anong ganda or lakas ng bitaw ng Tx mo, kung sablay Rx antenna mo, baka di pa rin lumagpas ng 100m. So kailangan ng better antenna both sa Rx at Tx. Sabi nga ni Hajile, stock OrangeLRS antennas as just as bad as not having antennas at all.

    -Pag nagkabit ka ng antenna para sa Rx, dagdag sa timbang yun. Mabigat pa naman ang copper. Magagamit pa sa camera gimbal, osd, gps, telemetry sensors etc. yung timbang nung antenna or simply mas kakain sa batt.

    -Any saved weight potentially increases batt life, all other factors remaining constant.

    -Using 433mhz provides solid Tx/Rx links.

    -A good 2.4ghz Tx/Rx system is hassle free, PnP and useable with stock antenna (wire lang yung sa Rx, no additional weight, no purchase/construction needed).

    -2.5Ghz is crowded and the frequency is more susceptible to interference, resonance and physical obstacles when compared to 433mhz.

    Sumatutal, eto ang tanong: Is it worth using 433Mhz on a quad given the added weight (and hassle) as compared to using 2.4Ghz when considering link reliability and flight time?


    In the meantime, na aliw ako sa na tutunan ko about antennas. Gagawan ko ng yagi yung router hehehe.

    -- edited by alexraz on Apr 22 2014, 12:04 PM
  • Is it worth using 433Mhz on a quad given the added weight (and hassle) as compared to using 2.4Ghz when considering link reliability and flight time?

    Not sure since wala pa kong tri.
    Kung lilipad ka sa lugar na maraming obstructions Ok na Ok ung 433 mhz.

    Ok kasi sakin ung 433mhz kung pwede ung ganitong setup:
    TX: 1w 433mhz openlrs with Rmilec 433 antenna
    RX: 433mhz openlrs reciever with Stock Antenna

    Naghahanap pa ko ng ibang maliit na antenna para sa reciever
    eto nakita ko
    External Image

    Since panget ung "stock ng orange rx" baket di ka bumili ng ibang brand (flytron)
  • @Roseneil
    Since panget ung "stock ng orange rx" baket di ka bumili ng ibang brand (flytron)


    Mahal. Saka same lang magiging issue kung di sukat yung antenna since pareho silang 433MHz.

    Gusto ko talaga nung Open LRS 433 (mura pa tas potentially sagana sa features) kaso ang issue ko kasi sa antenna ay ganito... kailangan daw ng dipole antenna (kagaya nung ginawa ni Hajile) para sa solid link. Kaya nag aalangan ako sa timbang(no idea kung ano idadagdag). Based sa sinabi ni Hajile, yung stock antenna, ay di maganda kasi mahaba dapat na ginawa lang coil. Low gain daw yung ganitong mga antenna (sabi ni pareng Wiki). Check mo kung yung pic sa taas ay ganun din.

    Yung rmilec sa taas mukhang ok kasi tama yung haba plus malamang sa hinde, kumukunekta yung ground nyan sa ground ng board nung Tx mod saka dun sa radio (na almost 6.5"), creating an assymetrical dipole.

    Eto pang 433mhz na totoong helical daw. 2 inches lang.

    <click here for link>
  • @Hajile

    Anong klaseng coax ginamit mo? SMA connectors?
  • @alexraz
    Right now sa plane ko sya ikakabit for now kasi mas simple sya i setup sa plane. Mahirap mag setup ng wiring sa quad dahil sa interference pag malapitan ang components. Pero pag nag close quarters FPV ako ililipat ko sya pag alam ko na paano mag setup ng maayos.

    Pareho silang reliable, yung weight di naman masyado important kasi ilang grams lang sya. Pero nung tine-test flight ko sa sa quad, lagi ko worry na baka umikot yung antenna, katabi pa naman nya yung props. Pag umalog at lumuwag yung antenna at nasabit sa props, patay ka. Yung main antenna ng 433 na pinakita ko, yung heavy side sa taas, so meron talaga tendency mag rotate pag lumuwag sya.

    Madami nang na recommend na antenna sa akin, susubukan ko sila eventually, pero for now yung dipole muna para simple. Meron din ground station side na antennas na gusto ko rin subukan. Pero alamin ko muna ang limit ng 433Mhz at 1.3Ghz para me baseline ako.

    @roseneil
    AFAIK, polarization lang ang kelangan mag match. Pag horizontal ang transmitter, dapat horizontal din ang receiver. Yung kay alexraz parang horizontal, so kelangan ko ata i higa yung antenna ko.

    Ung RX ba ang napoprogram hindi ung TX?


    Pareho silang merong arduino CPU actually. Fully working computers ang ginagamit sa transmitter at receiver. High tech na talago ngayon :)

    @alexraz
    I attribute the really bad antennas to really bad quality control (It's hobbyking, QC is a myth over there), the basic design might actually work if made properly, but i trust their products about as much as CDR-King.

    The weight isn't really as much of an issue, it's the size that i'm having trouble with. I always wonder if the antenna would bend into the props if i do a barrel roll. Then again, it might be the weight after all if it's heavy enough to bend or rotate.

    External Image


    Looks kinda rediculous. But if i can't find an alternative design, i might just have to live with it. It might even snag on something when i fly through gaps. That would be bad. If that quarter wave antenna is well made enough to actually work, i might just try it.

    Regarding the overall weight, i bought a plastic casing for my FPV camera and would likely get a smaller battery, hopefully that'll make up for the antenna and improve my flight time.

    As for the coax. I used this.

    http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/6035144854.html

    -- edited by Hajile on Apr 22 2014, 09:39 PM
  • ^
    di ba pede higa nalang din ung antenna? sa bottom ng quad imount parehas nalang horizontal polarization

    I attribute the really bad antennas to really bad quality control (It's hobbyking, QC is a myth over there), the basic design might actually work if made properly, but i trust their products about as much as CDR-King.

    TX: 1w 433mhz openlrs with Rmilec 433 antenna/ 433 Nagoya
    RX: 433mhz openlrs reciever with Stock Antenna
    Yay! pwede pala to palitan ko nalang ng ibang brand ung rx antenna :D

    Anu pala mas ok sa TX:
    Rmilec 433
    External Image


    or

    Nagoya 433
    External Image
  • I was testing a few things while was at work (during breaks syempre hehehe). I found lightweight materials at the office (left over from a previous project) I can use as antennas. I was thinking of mounting it under the quad chassis, thus the length shouldn't exceed 480mm tip to tip to prevent it from snagging. I found using elements with a big diameter reduces the length. I'm looking at 15mm diameter light aluminum. It should come about to just a little over 310mm, based on the antenna calculator. Almost same length as yours but I have to make up for the decrease in conductivity.

    I also have a very light folded dipole antenna I bought for the car a few years ago. It would need double sided taping to the chasis (it's that light). Kaso nga lang pang FM lang ata yung dimensions. I bet we can find something similar for UHF at Concorde or Blade. It's just more fun and more precise building stuff, though. Kamusta kaya magiging noise sa ilalim since it'll be under the FC?

    In any case, I ordered a matching pair of OrangeRx OpenLRS Tx/Rx modules so that's done.

    I attribute the really bad antennas to really bad quality control (It's hobbyking, QC is a myth over there), the basic design might actually work if made properly, but i trust their products about as much as CDR-King.


    Wiki said coiled monopoles are the worst in terms of gain so you weren't really far off with your statement. This is due to the lack of proper grounding and inadequate length to reach 1/4 wavelength. Helical monopoles, however are a different story, a source said.

    I actually love CDR-King! Swerte ako sa kanila, only had to RMA once. hahaha. They have this lightweight cam with DVR, about the size of a small flashlight and about the same length. It's weatherproof and its cheap (doesn't go well together, I know). It only does 720p but it's wide angle. It has a 3.5mm AV out jack and comes with 3.5mm to composite cable. Designed for bicycles, I thought it would make a good gopro proxy until I grow the balls to mount a real one. If the latency isn't bad, it might serve as an FPV cam.
  • @Roseneil

    Eto mukhang ok para sa Rx

    External Image


    Folded dipole na vertically polarized na mukhang tama yung dimensions. Libre na yung double sided tape.

    -- edited by alexraz on Apr 23 2014, 10:39 AM
  • ^
    Nice! umorder ka rin pala ng orange rx and tx
    1w version ba ung nakuha mo sa tx?


    @hajile
    eto dipole on a quad by ibcrazy
    Ganda talaga ng design ng spider type na quad perfect for fpv
    <click here for link>

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